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• 	leftover mcberta2 on 05/28/2008 at 3:34 AM
  Posts: 2 Avg Rating:	What is and what do they do with the process leftover? Rate this comment: (Reply)

  • 	Re: leftover jwer on 05/28/2008 at 8:53 AM
    Posts: 1	According to this website: "Cellulose and hemicellulose in biomass can be broken down into fermentable sugars by either acid or enzymatic hydrolysis. The main byproduct, lignin, can be burned for steam or power generation." Rate this comment: (Reply)

    • 	Re: leftover Kevin Bullis on 05/28/2008 at 11:17 AM		TR Staff Nanotechnology and Materials Science Editor
      Posts: 39 Avg Rating:	Yes, they'll be using the leftovers to make steam for the process. Rate this comment: (Reply)

      • Re: leftover srd on 05/30/2008 at 9:53 AM

        Posts: 2 Avg Rating:

        The left overs from the process also make excellent organic fertilizer. I am from a little town about 10 miles from the plant and am also a designer of two of the fire protection systems for this plant. I have watched with great interest the progress of this plant. The US should invest much more money in ethanol production. Un this mornings paper there is a front page write up on the plans for Verenium. They will build several more plants in southern Louisiana over the next years. I can see where this will go far. These plants will use several types of waste products including grasses and wood chips in an effort to find the best producer of ethanol. Rate this comment: (Reply)

• Feedstock energymv on 05/28/2008 at 10:06 AM

  Posts: 19 Avg Rating:

  Is important. I would prefer a recycled feedstock waste byproduct like the leftover bagasse from sugar production. But the article points out that their long term goal is a dedicated energy cane (virgin?) feedstock. That's why the bio-diesel industry is appealing. They can recycle used cooking oil to make the bio-diesel fuel. The feedstock is already there for the taking, so it does NOT need to be subsidized. Rate this comment: (Reply)

  • Re: Feedstock msreid on 05/28/2008 at 11:40 AM

    Posts: 6 Avg Rating:

    My concern about bio-deisel from cooking oil is simply the supply.  I can't imagine there is nearly enough cooking oil out there to actually supply any appreciable number of vehicles.  I would guess that once this process is established, and money is being made from this process, all the cane waste that currently exists around the world will be diverted to the process.  It is just a matter of economics, and will happen at some point as the process matures and develops. Rate this comment: (Reply)

    • Re: Feedstock ArtInvent on 05/28/2008 at 12:33 PM

      Posts: 15 Avg Rating:

      Absolutely no way the meagre amount of leftover cooking oil will ever supply more than a fraction of a percent of fuel demand. It's a drop in the bucket, and the nascent biodiesel industry along with biodiesel hobbyists are already tapping that supply out. That said, I feel biodiesel from more commercially oriented, purpose-built industries and crops might be a better solution than ethanol. Biodiesel would seem to be easier to produce and has more energy per liter than alcohol. Cars running biodiesel go 30 to 50% further on diesel than alcohol. It's much less hazardous that methanol and less flammable than ethanol. It would be nice if more diesel cars were available in this country to take advantage of diesel today and biodiesel tomorrow. Rate this comment: (Reply)

      • Re: Feedstock energymv on 05/28/2008 at 1:34 PM

        Posts: 19 Avg Rating:

        Correct...If the roughly 11 billion liters of waste vegetable oil annually (mainly from industrial deep fryers in potato processing plants, snack food factories and fast food restaurants) could be collected and used to replace the energetically equivalent amount of petroleum (an ideal case), almost 1% of US oil consumption could be offset. However, use of waste vegetable oil as a fuel competes with some already established uses (source: wikipedia so feel free to dispute it!). As a comparison ANWR peak production would hypothetically cover roughly 1.3 mmbpd (about 4%) of our 20.8 mmbpd U.S. oil demand in 2006. I doubt that ethanol (cellulosic or corn) or bio-diesel will EVER power 100% of transportation in this country (not even at a ratio of say 20% bio-fuel / 80% petrol). Bio-diesel is appealing to me just because it deals with waste cooking oil, although there But the main reason that I don't see virgin energy crops (currently subsidized) as a serious sustainable fuel source is the increasing rate and severity of droughts, food shortages, and population growth in developing countries. A small fraction of the fuel demand is all that bio-fuel may ever provide unless we find alternative and substantially more efficient means of transportation. The current trend has as much to do with the farm lobby as it does with the need for alternative fuels. Rate this comment: (Reply)

        • 	Re: Feedstock makornitzky on 05/28/2008 at 2:19 PM
          Posts: 10 Avg Rating:	If you are worried about drought and crop failure, have the plant run on Kudzu.  We haven't been able to figure out a way to STOP it from growing. Rate this comment: (Reply)

        • Re: Feedstock msreid on 05/28/2008 at 2:21 PM

          Posts: 6 Avg Rating:

          In the end, I don't think we can grow our way out of our fuel problems, no matter what we grow, or what kind of fuel we turn it into.  The problem is simply in the low energy density of plants.  Even if we can get 100% of the energy out of a plant (which is practically impossible), it will not be even close to how much energy you can get out of the same weight in petroleum. The other variable in the equation is time.  If we could have plants growing ultra-fast, and not stripping the ground of nutrients (which would require fertilizing, which uses petroleum), then the case for growing our energy might be better.  But I think in the end we will need to develop energy sources that turn much more of the sun's energy into energy we can use.  And I think that will only come with wind, solar, wave, tidal, etc.   Those are the sources that don't need ongoing inputs, and condense the sun's (and sometimes the moon's) energy automatically for us, rather than us having to grow it and alter it for use. Rate this comment: (Reply)

        • 	Re: Feedstock pkassebaum on 05/28/2008 at 4:13 PM
          Posts: 5 Avg Rating:	Indeed.  I just got a paper published in the journal 'Energy Policy' that reveals if ALL of US farm land was used to grow energy crops for ethanol, we could at most displace 12% of US transportation fuel in terms of energy consumed. We'll need a mix of alternative energies to get anywhere. Rate this comment: (Reply)

          • Re: Feedstock nerfer on 06/03/2008 at 3:29 PM

            Posts: 2

            We'll be hard pressed to ever supply as much renewable energy as we currently use with fossil fuels.  Even electric cars powered by solar/wind/geothermal/hydro will be a part of the solution but even with biodiesel and ethanol probably won't add up to what we currently consume.  We need smaller, more efficient vehicles, electric bikes, better passenger train routes, etc.  We simply have to consume less - a gallon saved is a gallon earned.  If we reduce our consumption 50% (which is doable, I've done it) then the production numbers are a lot easier to reach. Rate this comment: (Reply)

  • 	Re: Feedstock srd on 06/02/2008 at 2:22 PM
    Posts: 2 Avg Rating:	The energy cane they are talking about is sorghum cane. Forgive my spelling, but the sorghum is what was sometimes use in days gone by to make a type of mollassis that was use in farm animal food. Rate this comment: (Reply)

• 	hemicellulose typo walt on 05/28/2008 at 1:30 PM
  Posts: 14 Avg Rating:	There seems to be a typo that might cause confusion: 2nd page, 1st paragraph: "Hemicellulose, however, is made of six-carbon sugars...." 2nd paragraph:  "The five-carbon sugars in hemicellulose are then fermented...." Rate this comment: (Reply)

  • 	Re: hemicellulose typo Kevin Bullis on 05/28/2008 at 4:51 PM		TR Staff Nanotechnology and Materials Science Editor
    Posts: 39 Avg Rating:	Thanks.  It's been fixed. Rate this comment: (Reply)

• Why not liquefy cellulose directly? gabrielg01 on 05/29/2008 at 5:02 PM

  Posts: 306 Avg Rating:

  Cellulose itself can be used as fuel directly. Trouble is that it is solid - the polymer fibers are too long. If the polymers could be broken down into shorter oligomers and then liquefied, in say ethanol or methanol, then this mixed fuel could be used to power engines. So why go all the way to ferment cellulose into ethanol? Wouldn't it be more efficient to turn solid cellulose into "liquid cellulose"?... Rate this comment: (Reply)

• On the one hand... MakeSense on 05/31/2008 at 10:07 AM

  Posts: 74 Avg Rating:

  Well, it sounds like progress, but like most new technologies we'll have to wait and see. On the other hand, the DOE will put up most of the money to build the thing, and $1.28/gal will subsidize the output. If it takes that to maybe sell ethanol for $2/gal, then there is a long way to go. Also, a commercial plant that produces 20-30 million gallons/year? That's next to nothing. As one post already reminds us, the DOE does not foresee cellulosic making a large longterm contribution to energy supply. There's not realistically enough biomass, and demand will continue to grow. If you want to get the most energy from biomass for the least money, burn it for electricity. Rate this comment: (Reply)

• Cellulosic Ethanol as Alternative Energy Source. martinaatayo on 06/02/2008 at 11:08 AM

  Posts: 32 Avg Rating:

  The issue of energy as the bedrock of any economy has not yet resonnated profoundly in the minds of individuals and governments to provoke uncommon emergency action world wide.    Though scientific alternative energy break-throughs are being documented, none has so far compared to energy from petroleum with world wide supply. Questions that come to mind include: what would be the span or limitation of application of ethanol, as alternative energy source.. What effective and efficient feasibility studies have been accomplished so far? What would be the cost of production, raw materials, and human resources? How sustainable is ethanol production and for how long would available resources sustain to overshadow any futher need for petroleum. It is doubtful, if at all,alternative energy could ever have broad application like petroleum oil and its derivative products.   It is therefore on realization of uniqueness of petroleum oil and its role in our markets and on national economy of every nation that leaves critical thinking mind wondering why global nations have not surmmon a United Nation emergency economic session to discuss energy and petroleum oil with consequential devastating effects on economies, and not necessarily, individual country, forging its way on bilateral definition. A stitch in time saves an eminent monumental economic damage that has potential manifests in the near future. Rate this comment: (Reply)

• 	are these canes produced in US? mshuq2000 on 06/10/2008 at 11:34 AM
  Posts: 1	They are talking about canes. I am not sure how much of these canes can be produced in USA. Does anyone know? Rate this comment: (Reply)

• 	Just burn it? jpdemers on 06/18/2008 at 2:30 AM
  Posts: 33 Avg Rating:	As the poster MakeSense noted above, you can release all of the energy in cellulose by burning it.  My question is this: would it be more efficient, overall, to simply burn an energy crop in an ordinary electric power plant, and drive plug-in hybrid or all-electric vehicles?  If you returned the ash to the soil, you'd pretty much have a closed system. Rate this comment: (Reply)