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• Car batteries as home backup power sources felixkramer on 01/19/2007 at 12:45 AM

  Posts: 2

  Many people spend $5-$10K for emergency home generators -- diesel-powered emitters that have to be started every 3 weeks to confirm they're still working right. AC Propulsion's two-way system is a better approach. At CalCars, we're planning to demonstrate how it could work with my plug-in hybrid Prius at my home where I work every day. If we have an extended local or regional outage, I'll be able to power one line in my house (the kitchen line), so I can keep the refrigerator, lights and laptops on, using my rooftop solar system, which will also charge my 9 kWh car pack. At night, I'll power that same line from the car battery. If we have a few cloudy days in a row, I'll be able to back the car out of the garage and run it as a relatively clean generator to recharge the battery and power that single line. This will require adding an additional inverter to the solar setup (which currently sends power back to the grid like most standard set-ups) and switches to isolate or "island" the single line from the grid (so no utility repairperson is at risk). We're calling this V2H, vehicle-to-home, a subset of V2G, the vehicle-to-grid strategy that's getting more and more attention. It's all illustrative of the benefits we get by powering transportation from electricity. -- Felix Kramer, founder, CalCars.org Rate this comment: (Reply)

  • Half our driving in plug-in cars/utility load issue Boyceg on 01/22/2007 at 11:08 PM

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    What if we started doing half our driving with electric cars that depend on the electric utilites for all their power?  I ran the numbers out in 1985 and concluded that if everyone went home and plugged in their cars, and the chargers are smart, we may be able to get half the power from what would now be on-peak power at night.  The other half would require the output of 50 Brown's Ferry nuclear power plants running 24 hours a day.  If you don't want nuclear, then we could use 150 Bull Run steam power plants like the one in my back yard.  3 per state does not seem so bad.  But, don't forget the coal cars and railroad tracks to haul more coal.   If the cars are able to go many miles on a charge, then a very small generator could provide the average power the car would need to hold highway speed.  The generator could be optimized to efficiently produce energy over a small range of power.    Plug-in electric cars will make life interesting.  When we have hybrids that can deliver an honest 75MPG, there will be a little note somewhere that specifies that the stated MPG assumes the headlights are off and the blower is on low speed.    I remember the old Corvairs had a gasoline heater that could dent the fuel efficiency by several miles per gallon. Rate this comment: (Reply)

• This is dumb ssargent on 01/19/2007 at 5:00 AM

  Posts: 11 Avg Rating:

  Doesn't sound like anything a generator couldn't fix.  Need heat, how about a portable stove or a small propane heater.  I don't know.  Maybe it's becaues I live in Colorado and go camping all the time that I wouldn't be worried because living without power is a lot like camping except in your house.  It's also a dumb article because CO was recently hit with major storms that weren't major enough to knock out power but were major enough to immobilize anyone that had a car.  You needed a good four wheel truck or SUV to get around and even many of those got stuck or had trouble during the worst of the storm before the plows came in.  I don't think a gas vs. an electric car would make a big difference in one's survivability either way.  All you need is some camping gear, packaged non-perishabe food, and some snow shoes.  This person obviously doesn't have a lot of experience with dealing with snowstorms or is just a freaked out non-sense alarmist.  Oh my god, the electric car forces are going to make it harder for us to weather storms...oh no... Also, if your electric was charged and four wheel drive you'd be fine, if there is such a thing as an electric SUV.  but also, no storm will stop snowshoes so get some exercise and you won't even have to pay a gym to get it, you'll just get it the old fashion way: by living. Speaking of old fashioned: did you know humans survived the ice age, some of whom didn't even have any civilization of any sort.  Do you really think a snowstorm is that scary.  How about stop whoring yourself out to the hybrid industry and giving them free advertising and report some real technological innovation like many of your colleagues do so well and perhaps you have done in other articles.  This sucks! Edit: I gotta respond to the comment above too. I actually checked out buying gas, diesel, and propane generators.  If you spend 5 to 10K on your emergency generator system, you're an idiot--I don't mean this of all people though--if you want a system that nice and it's what you want and you have the money then go for it, but it is by no means what you have to pay to get a generator.  There are so many other options.  Your probably  either paying too much or buying more power than you actually need to weather a storm or other emergency.  But then again, I've lived through multiple blizzards and love the snow and snowy areas.  Maybe some people have more trouble with these sorts of things... I'm not trying to bag on anyone, but fear of winter storms shouldn't influence what car you buy.  If you want an electric car buy it, you won't die in a storm because you did.  Don't like electrics, whatever...buy what you want. Cars aren't the majority of hydrocarbon use and I think change in energy production and consumption will have to be much larger and farther reaching than worrying about what kind of cars people buy...so whatever... I noticed the person above started CalCars.org.  I'm curious what part of california they live and how many blizzards they get.  If your from SoCal, I'm not sure you have the best perspective on this. Also, I am not sure what the solar panels have to do with anything...If there's a snow storm your solar panels won't work.  Snow means it's cloudy (especially if its a blizzard). Plus your solar panels will be covered with snow, so you'll have to shovel your roof before they'll work again when it gets sunny. Rate this comment: (Reply)

  • Re: This is dumb Slpgdragon on 01/19/2007 at 11:52 AM

    Posts: 1

    I agree this idea is dumb, but so is arguing over it. The fact that there will be consequences such as weather and terrain conditions that can inhibit the use of such technology in a vehicle are only a few of the most common arguments why this will never work for the most people. Those who sit in air controled enviroment chambers with their slide rules, pocket protectors, and horn rimmed glasses do not take in concideration the real world varibles to their ideas. They see a means to cut back the use of, not eliminate, combustable engine vehicles. Which means you will need a 4 car garage for the average family during those times of un-for seen variables occur such as when mother nature reminds us who's in charge, or better yet when you drive certain vehicles for a living that this would not prove to be practicle. And then there is always my favorite variable totally forgotten, and I think it was for a intentional reason, the idea that our relaince on an electronic life style will make us more and more vulnerable to our enemies, ever heard of EMP? During a time when our nation is experiencing its worst weather such as we are now, systematic releases of strategic high elevation large EMP's could send us all back into the stone age for years, and we would not have anyway to mobilize our defenses, and or effectively repell a massive enemy attack or invasion. Large EMP's can be discharged from high above us without any collateral physical damage to the surface, but any electronic devices that are not protected from it would be made totaly inoperable. All communicatins would go down, all vehices would cease to operate. And again if it was during a bad winter, the number of people that would die from no heat, water, food, or medical attention from the lack of electricity alone, would be in the millions. These visionaries with their computers and slide rules have not been able to break the boundries of science to create clean safe reusable energy such as cold fussion because they are still building upon and relying on the ideas of the past that are proven. The visions of the innovators of the past is all they have today to build on, they can not break out of the box and go beyond the visions of the past. Yes a handful are but not enough, most are still building upon the theories and concepts of the wheel. They are and were taught the LAWS of science, and those laws have become their prisons that inhibit future innovations. Break away from the numbers on a blackboard or on a spread sheet, throw away the slide rules, and take what you do know and run with it, break some rules, only then will you ever be counted umongst the stars of the greatest minds. There are other forms of energy in the known universe that we have not even began to explore or contemplate upon such as can be found in the quantum ranges of physics we seem to fear to explore. Not all advanced species think in the terms AC or DC energy, to beleive this only shows the limits of your understanding and wisdom. Look back when someone said we could use microwave energy to cook a meal, someone from Ben Franklin's time would look at you and say, HUH? Yet, today it is a common thing to do. So how does one expect that a much older and advanced species out there in the vastness of space would be using technology at the same level as we are? They see us with the same discontention as we would see Ben Franklin today. We need to resurrect the unafraid rejected visionary minds of yesterday, now, in order to help save our tomorrow. Imagine if Davinci knew all we know today, and with his capacity to envision outside of the box what our world of tomorrow could be like? Today they trade one disaster in the making for another without thinking things through to the end. Create a point ahead and work the issue backwards for a change will ya? And do not sit there and tell me how can we when we do not know what that point may be like in order to work it backwards, because you do, it just goes to show everyone you have not seen the end goal to its fullest completion. A writer creates a story from it prospective conclusion to its beginning. And often times can change the end game along the path to its conclusion by what they discover along the way, why can't you? Here is your end goal, create a new source of clean safe renewable energy that does not fall within the known confines of known scientific laws, principles or acceptable guidelines and technology, and now work it backwards. Rate this comment: (Reply)

  • Re: It is not a dumb issue gabrielg01 on 01/19/2007 at 8:31 PM

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    It's not a dumb issue, because there is always a considerable number of people who are barely prepared. Look at the Katrina disaster - they were warned to evacuate, because it was known to be a storm that was going to bulldoze the town. And most sensible people did evacuate. But there were tens of thousands of people who lacked any common sense. They stayed, and they rationalized their stupid decision that they 'have nowhere to go'. When one's life is in danger, one goes and takes one step at a time - the immediate priority is to leave the danger zone. Now try to explain this to all those stupid people. The point is that in a major winter storm the same thing will repeat itself. There will be thousands of people who are utterly unprepared and clueless. People are dumb, but talking about this issue is not dumb. The author makes a good point. Rate this comment: (Reply)

• 	electric cars sfruechte on 01/19/2007 at 12:49 PM
  Posts: 1	I don't think power outages are really an issue.  How do you pump gas without electricity?  I've seen bulk plants with gravity feed but never a gas station. Rate this comment: (Reply)

  • 	Re: electric cars ssargent on 01/19/2007 at 4:21 PM
    Posts: 11 Avg Rating:	Excellent, excellent point.  Once again, I don't get this article.  It seems to be some sort fake argument that's really just a shallow ruse to promote some new hybrid.  OK hybrids are cool, but I don't know what they have to do with snow storms.  Thank you for pointing out another reason why this just makes no sense at all. Rate this comment: (Reply)

• Hybrid vehicles as a power source steverose on 01/19/2007 at 11:02 PM

  Posts: 3

  First, when Felix Kramer (first comment) speaks of car batteries, he is referring to the high voltage battery used for propulsion, not the 12V lead acid battery used for accessories found in almost all vehicles, even hybrid. Second, S. Sargent and Slpgdragon are correct that folks should be prepared for baseline survival, regardless of what other measures they choose to take.  However, there is a lot that was overlooked in the  article and comments. Electrical outages or physical isolation can persist long after the cause (such as the ice storms recently experienced) have passed.  It is not uncommon for electricity in rural areas not to be restored for a couple of weeks, due to the extent of downed power lines. Most generators purchased for use during emergencies use a gravity feed fuel system.  When they run out of fuel at night, the owners end up with a flashlight in their mouth, trying to pour gasoline from a poorly designed 'can' into a fuel tank directly above a hot cylinder.  Not infrequently, this occurs in an area where there is an ignition source (such as the pilot flame of a hot water heater).  I've known of a couple of fires that started this way. Hybrid systems used in the Prius or Ford Escape already contain all the elements needed for a standby power system, including the inverter.  Each contains a variable frequency inverter capable of powering a 40 to 90 horsepower (30 to 68KW) electric motor, equivalent to about 25 to 55 amperes at 120VAC.  The Ford Escape has a 330VDC battery, which should result in a 120VAC RMS output without further conversion.  Both hold a reasonable amount of fuel, and can be refueled safely. Both contain a very efficient, very low emission engine, and can produce electricity at a cost close to commercial power.  All that may be required to adapt them for use as sources of electricity is a socket, and the software to lock the inverter at 60Hz. Both vehicles can start and stop their gas engine autonomously, depending only on the charge state of the high voltage battery, which depends on demand.  This is unlike a conventional emergency generator system, which must remain running for electricity to be produced.  If any system is to be coupled to a circuit in an on-grid home, an isolation switch would also be required as Felix Kramer mentioned. It is not necessary to add more batteries for this application.  As battery technology improves, other possibilities will open up.  But the capability of plugging your house into your car (instead of the opposite) is a possibility now.  For more information, (or to learn to filet watermelon), please see the Prius article on my website (my name dot com), and the 2001 letter to Toyota proposing this solution.  By the way, our 2001 Prius got better milage last year than in 2001!  And our Escape hybrid is 4WD. Steve Rate this comment: (Reply)

• Electric Vehicles during Power failure grindian on 01/23/2007 at 1:53 AM

  Posts: 1

  Metal Air Batteries like Zinc Air Batteries are the best solution for the EV's, with the spare Metal Anode Cartridges stocked aboard the vehicle. The Battery can then be recharged mechanically within minutes, by replacing the discharged cartridge with new one, without any power. They are safer than the fire prone Lithium Batteries and even Hydrogen Fuel Cells. Their byproducts are non-toxic and recyclable.   They would also provide emergency power to homes during the failures. Even lighter metals like Aluminium with better elctrical properties should be developed and pursued, which would be easier to carry and handle on board and also cost less, as compared to spending billions of dollars for decades in developing the other advanced Batteries/Fuel Cells.                        Rate this comment: (Reply)

• Would I want an electric car in my garage with the power out? hosro59@comcast.net on 01/24/2007 at 5:04 PM

  Posts: 6

  My experience with power outage, in my area, is a rare event that would not outway perception of value of an electric car. The fact that others may not be engaged to plug in their car regularly is not an argument against the propulsion method. When the weather is bad enough for an outage my employer is probably down too. If the weather is so bad would I want to be out even with a full charge? Not. By the time the car type is available portable full cells would be available for back up power for my home, limited use maybe. Car, also, possibly design to be used for same purpose. In Michigan I was snowed in, car would not start. No electrical power, roads drifted closed. I had fire place and firewood. Rate this comment: (Reply)